M5R1 Shifting

[Orange Alpine]

Hello all, newby here.

My car is off topic, but it's mechanicals are not. It is a 2.3 Ranger Duratec with M5 tranny installed in a Sunbeam Alpine. Part of the installation involved using a shortened shifter. The throws are quite short, but the feel is not "right". I can't help but think the problem is related to the short throws. i.e., correct shifter rail detent pressure that is fine for the stock throw is too much when used with a shortened throw.

So the question(s): Has anyone diddled with the detent spring pressure or detents? How much pressure is required to keep the tranny in the selected gear? What would happen if the neutral detents were relieved? Do guys notice this problem when using the short throw shifter kit? Is it just me?

Bill

[fordnut71]

welcome
me personally iv never notice having to use a lot of pressure to engage the gears on a stock or hurst shifter.
maybe your having a problem with the tranny or the the shifter is to short causing a ratio/leverage problem.

[CopyKat]

Clutch setup correctly? or maybe the syncro's need to be replaced. I've shifted one using a crescent wrench. Didn't feel that much different.

Have to remember that this is a truck transmission not as smooth and silky as a car trans would be.

May want to look into a T5 swap if it's possible. The 2.3 and 2.5 share the same bell pattern dont they?

[Ron83ranger]

so are you using a shortened shifter or a "short" throw shifter?

[Orange Alpine]

It is shorter. I'm using this home made shifter arrangement.
http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo17/Orangealpine/IMG_1983.jpg
It is needed as the stock shifter comes out way too far forward. Very precise feel.

Clutch is fine. This is the third M5 I've used in the car, some without the extended shifter. All shift the same.

I'm comparing the shift action to that in our Focus and ZX2. Maybe that's the problem.

Bill

[CopyKat]

Might be getting a bit too much bind in your linkage. Or your linkage is flexing to where it doesnt feel right.

[muddpawz]

HAHA WTH is that....a socket swivel???? Now that's some riggin right there!! Albeit safe to say it would not be a fair comparison between the two. If all else is in proper order then hop in a ranger and row through the gears. My hurst is notchy and takes little force to engage each gear.

[gumby]

No its not a socket swivel. It is a steering u-joint.

I dig the shifter extension! As far as shift feel, the m5 is garbage. I have had a couple that shifted nice, and both were VERY low mile units. All others have been crap.

Here is a bell to put a T5 behind the duratec
http://quad4rods.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=18&category_id=2&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=100041

The other option that I have looked at is from the latest generation Miata. Both 5 and 6 speed manuals available behind the duratec in those.

[Orange Alpine]

Here is a better shot of the extension. http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo17/Orangealpine/IMG_0892.jpg
The u-joint is a commercial piece, lifted from a local industry about 30 years ago by an uncle. 5/8" bore and very high quality, so I used it. I made the extension from parts on hand. POH seems to dictate, or at least heavily influence, my designs.

Guess I'm just going to have to forget the shifting. Nothing really wrong with it, very precise with good feedback, just not the smoothest.

Bill

[Foolee]

Get a T5 Manual, they are a better trans. The shifter is about 8" further back and there is better aftermarket support. 87/88 Thunderbird Turbocoupes were the only t5 with a 2.3 bellhousing to use a hydraulic clutch setup. Just my $0.02

http://www.turborangerforums.com/showthread.php?t=3100

Edit: Pretty cool adapter though.

[fordnut71]

Get a T5 Manual, they are a better trans. The shifter is about 8" further back and there is better aftermarket support. 87/88 Thunderbird Turbocoupes were the only t5 with a 2.3 bellhousing to use a hydraulic clutch setup. Just my $0.02

http://www.turborangerforums.com/showthread.php?t=3100

Edit: Pretty cool adapter though.

he has a duratech not a lima motor, so t5 isnt going to work there.

[Orange Alpine]

This is a Duratec. There are two ways to bolt a T5 to this engine: Buy a Quad 4 Rods bell @ about $500 or make a bell housing. Neither is going to happen. The Mazda tranny is the only realistic alternative and would be the way to go if building today. But when this project was getting under way, the Mazda's were made of unobtainium.

But all in all, this setup is not that bad. Its not like I'm missing shifts or don't don't know which gear its going into. Just would like to improve the feel.

Bill

[fordnut71]

love the idea.
i really think the leverage is off. i think if you brought the link up higher above the u joint a lil higher it would help. so instead of being parallel maybe get it up to 30*

[Foolee]

OIC though he had a Lima, although I was pretty sure there was a company making a T5/TKO bell for the duratech.

http://www.rwdmotorsport.com/bellhousings/cat_2.html

RWD Motorsports has a Duratec to T4/9?

[flyin]

try a heavy knob on the shifter. It should change the shift feel positively. I read something about this on autospeed.com and it seemed like a convincing article. If you try this let us know.

[Orange Alpine]

I think that raising the link would shorten the throw. But increasing the throw a bit might help. That would not be a huge problem, just rotate the u-joint and drill a second set of holes. Drop down maybe a quarter inch would make a noticeable change. Hey, maybe drill two or three sets at different distances.

Hadn't considered a heavy knob. But once again, worth a shot and I can see how it might work. Right now it has a nice, but very light, walnut knob. I have a 2" rod of stainless just begging to be turned into chips. That just might be the next project.

I ain't about to venture off into the world of imported housings. Way too many things to go wrong. It will either be the M5 or Mazda.

Bill

[Cutlass327]

I know the stock Ranger shift sticks are filled with rubber at the bottom, and the piece that actually bolts to the trans stub is only a few inches long, and it goes up into the rubber. This is a great dampener, as I never noticed just how bad mine felt shifting until I cut that shifter stick and made it solid. Now it feels really "clunky" to shift it.

I was trying to think of how you could put a rubber dampener similar to that with your shifter. All I can think of would be to cut yours right below the bend, weld a tube to the bottom of it, find some rubber bushings like for the top stud of a shock absorber or even a stabilizer bar end link and slide them over the stub that wold be bolted to the top of the u-joint. Then you would have to press the tub piece onto those bushings. It would have to be a tight fit, so that they wouldn't work apart as you shifted.. Might be easier to press the bushings into the tube first, taper the stub, and then shove the tube and bushings onto the stub...

[Orange Alpine]

I know the stock Ranger shift sticks are filled with rubber at the bottom, and the piece that actually bolts to the trans stub is only a few inches long, and it goes up into the rubber. This is a great dampener, as I never noticed just how bad mine felt shifting until I cut that shifter stick and made it solid. Now it feels really "clunky" to shift it.

I was trying to think of how you could put a rubber dampener similar to that with your shifter. All I can think of would be to cut yours right below the bend, weld a tube to the bottom of it, find some rubber bushings like for the top stud of a shock absorber or even a stabilizer bar end link and slide them over the stub that wold be bolted to the top of the u-joint. Then you would have to press the tub piece onto those bushings. It would have to be a tight fit, so that they wouldn't work apart as you shifted.. Might be easier to press the bushings into the tube first, taper the stub, and then shove the tube and bushings onto the stub...

V-E-R-Y interesting. So at least one person understands what I'm talking about.

I was totally unaware of the rubber bushing, all of my trannys have been purchased without a shifter. Well, one was purchased with shifter but the shipping box busted and the shifter fell out. How about an engine mount that has a stud vulcanized on either side of a doughnut? I have a couple of those laying around. Also a mill and a lathe, so it becomes a matter of dreaming up adaptors that will do the job and I can build.

Bill

[Cutlass327]

I remembered I have a spare shifter since the GF doesn't like my modified one when she has to drive it for a length of time, so here's a couple pics of it to give you an idea..

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h65/Cutlass327/IMG_20111122_150330.jpg

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h65/Cutlass327/IMG_20111122_150347.jpg

[Orange Alpine]

I have my new shifter knob. Weighs 1 lb, 7.5 oz! Just for giggles, I photographed it with the one that was on the shifter, weighs 2.2 oz.
http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo17/Orangealpine/IMG_2618.jpg
I suspect you guys are probably a bunch of closet bling junkies, so enjoy! Just wait until I get the neon lights installed!

Cutlass327, thanks for the pics. I think I can make a Chinese copy of the OEM setup. It will involve boring out the u-joint to about 3/4" and modifying the shifter. Should be no problem and no cost, my favorite kind of mod!

I like the failure mode of that design, it simply allows the shifter to rotate. Failure mode the motor mount (unlikely, I know) leaves the shifter hanging free in your hand.

Bill

[Orange Alpine]

Geez, you guys are a tough crowd. Would it help if I told you it was BILLET?

Anyway, I took the Alpine for a short spin, the knob helped a lot, but extended about an inch higher than the old knob. That, and the shininess made it look like a clown car. So I cut about a half inch off the bottom and tapped the threads deeper. That allows the knob to be about 3/4" lower and one ounce lighter. Helped the visual situation a lot.

Just got back from a 30 mile drive, wanted to see how it shifts with a warm tranny. I like it! If it had shifted like this, I would never tried to improve the shifting. But I am going to go ahead and do the rubber bushing thing. If it does not work out, it is reversible.

Thanks to all.
Bill

[gumby]

glad you are makin progress!



mmmmmmbillet

[flyin]

I am just glad to pass on some good info

[Orange Alpine]

I know the stock Ranger shift sticks are filled with rubber at the bottom, and the piece that actually bolts to the trans stub is only a few inches long, and it goes up into the rubber. This is a great dampener, as I never noticed just how bad mine felt shifting until I cut that shifter stick and made it solid. Now it feels really "clunky" to shift it.

I was trying to think of how you could put a rubber dampener similar to that with your shifter. All I can think of would be to cut yours right below the bend, weld a tube to the bottom of it, find some rubber bushings like for the top stud of a shock absorber or even a stabilizer bar end link and slide them over the stub that wold be bolted to the top of the u-joint. Then you would have to press the tub piece onto those bushings. It would have to be a tight fit, so that they wouldn't work apart as you shifted.. Might be easier to press the bushings into the tube first, taper the stub, and then shove the tube and bushings onto the stub...

I made a rubber bushing for the shift mechanism, even took some pics. Unfortunately, they were lost when the camera disk turned toes up. Anyway, don't do it. I think it reduced shifter vibration, but it makes the shifter feel like your shifting through a bowl of Jello, especially when going into 5th or reverse. in fact, anyone that thinks their stock shifter feels to vague, figure out a way to replace the rubber bushing with steel. I think you'll like the results.

Bill

[AirBender]

ive had this issue before and it turned out to be the top plate where the shifter goes in was wore out... one of the locating pins was missing also.....swaping another top plate made it shift like butter....till the tranny grenaded>>> imagine that. me grenading a m5od....haha... anyhow... this top plate is on the shelf right now and i will never use it... if you want it for the cost of shipping its yours.....

[Cutlass327]

The one I had modified I figured out how to replace the rubber the hard way, because my original plan was to just heat the shift rod and bend it back and closer to my leg (didn't like reaching for the glove box for OD!). Well, when I warmed it, the rubber oozed out, and I had 2 pieces. I just cut the now hollow part off, and welded a 1/2 round bar the length I wanted to it and the top of the cast piece that goes on the trans. Heated and tweaked it to final shape, and it is more comfortable to me, but the GF doesn't like it. I think it just has to do with the sad shifting feel of the trans anyways. This trans feels worn out.

Glad you got a system working for you!

[Orange Alpine]

ive had this issue before and it turned out to be the top plate where the shifter goes in was wore out... one of the locating pins was missing also.....swaping another top plate made it shift like butter....till the tranny grenaded>>> imagine that. me grenading a m5od....haha... anyhow... this top plate is on the shelf right now and i will never use it... if you want it for the cost of shipping its yours.....

Nah, this is just the rubber bushing and anyway, I've got two spare top plates. Funny how a guy suddenly gets ass deep in stuff once you start messing with old parts. The tranny only has 40K on it and the rubbery feel appeared immediately after I installed the rubber bushing. A fellow that didn't know the history would probably swear it was a bad shifter socket, cause that's exactly how it feels.

It might have worked if I used anything but a piece of rubber hose. Its gonna come out this week, to be replaced with nice piece of steel. Also going to do a little redesign on the remote shifter. Instead of trying to make the moving mechanism as light as possible, I'm going for mass. Just got to test the limits.

Cutlass327, you might consider making a big shifter knob out of some solid steel. Adding mass to the shifter certainly improved the feel of my tranny, which felt like the previous one, which felt like the previous one.

Bill

[Orange Alpine]

Replaced the rubber bushing with a steel one. Shifter is now rock solid. Also made the shifter extension heavier. It now has a piece of steel (1 lb, 15 oz) as a separator, instead of the ladder construction.
http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo17/Orangealpine/IMG_2863.jpg

Shifts fine. I'm still using the stainless shift knob. Not sure if I even want to try the old knob, I like this one. Drove the car about 100 miles today with the "new and improved" extension. Can't, for the life of me, remember how the shift feels, so it must be good. I'm sure I would remember if it was bad.

Bill

[AirBender]

good job.... a friend of mine did a similar extension for his t5 swapped rx7....