View Full Version : The staged turbo project, mock up.
Jesshwarren
10-23-2008, 06:39 PM
The theory about Twin Turbos vs. Single Turbo.
http://dieselpowersource.com/article_info.php?articles_id=2
I been messing around in the shop lately :conf45:
I know this is used on diesels a lot. But when trying for high boost on a gas motor the same theory's apply, so why not :rockwoot:
This I plan to test out on the 97 4x4 ranger. 1st turbo regulated to 20PSI 2nd turbo regulated to 20PSI 20x2=40PSI of boost. Exhaust drive will be low compressor's will be operating in the efficiency range. Will be fun :=) Just need enough fuel and a strong enough motor to hold the power.
http://rangersrevenge.com/cgi/imagehosting/14900f712b73a7.jpg
http://rangersrevenge.com/cgi/imagehosting/14900f71305bcd.jpg
http://rangersrevenge.com/cgi/imagehosting/14900f712e7146.jpg
Redneck86
10-23-2008, 07:04 PM
:shocked: Wow. Make sure you get a carnage video! Sumbitch should be rather potent!
nagelandy55
10-23-2008, 07:28 PM
haha WOW thats awsome. Any plans on testing it this year yet?
I've seen these setups on diesles too but i thought that the first turbo was usually smaller than the second .... or is it the other way around .....
Make sure your oil pump has enough pressure to feed both turbo's, id hate to see you wreck a turbo but you probably have a few more kicken around lol
Jesshwarren
10-23-2008, 08:48 PM
haha WOW thats awsome. Any plans on testing it this year yet?
I've seen these setups on diesles too but i thought that the first turbo was usually smaller than the second .... or is it the other way around .....
Make sure your oil pump has enough pressure to feed both turbo's, id hate to see you wreck a turbo but you probably have a few more kicken around lol
I am thinking a hy35 and a larger secondary turbo. I'll have the hy35 internaly gated to 20 PSI. If I do some work on the WG, port it out and make sure it opens all the way so it can properly feed the larger turbo. Should be able to get max boost at 2300 RPM's + have the top end HP of a large turbo.
AJ_Fritz
10-23-2008, 08:55 PM
:yikes: holy f&%king sh-t! somebodys been busy! :didimiss: :hehe:
do i smell propane :biggrin:
is there something in the water over there lol
Hows the exhaust exiting out of the second turbo? Gonna go through the firewall?
Very cool. Make sure to keep us posted. Have you thought about putting the second turbo closer to the fender to have them more so side by side? There should be enough room for you to do a smooth 3" 180 into a tight 90. Then you could plumb the downpipe without hitting the firewall.
Another option would be to modify the outlet of your manifold to put the first turbo futher from the engine. Then you could mount the second turbo immediately after the first. A straight shot from the first's oulet to the second's inlet. The second turbo would be at a 90 to the first... maybe closer to 120 to allow for easier intake/downpipe. lol... sorry if that makes no sense... i can see it in my head, but it's hard to put into words.
muddpawz
10-24-2008, 11:54 AM
diesels use a smaller 1st to spool up a huge 2nd turbo. easily boosting up to 80-90psi. if you wanted to you could remote the 2nd turbo under the passenger floorboard,and run exhaust strait back from there. Ive seen a lifted 4x4 ranger with his under the cab, looked nice, and out of the way, keep under hood temps a tad cooler as well... just a thought. hope the heads studded, o-ringed wouldnt hurt either. 5.9 cummins pop heads at 45psi... good luck!
check this link out if you havent seen it
before..http://www.therangerstation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8000&highlight=remote+turbo
Hows the intercooler fed? a intercooler with 2 ins one out or? Is there a spot where the faster turbo will push its boost back into the line toward the bigger turbo and be pushing against the fins? I am confused and intrigued, lol HY and an HX 35 in series be to big? lol I need the answers NOW! j/k Pretty awesome setup Jess
Soul, to compound the boost, the first one will feed the second one (series turbo's). So there is only one inlet to the intercooler still. Now if they were parallel turbo's then there would either be a "Y" from either turbo outlet to one intercooler inlet, or two inlets. Parallel intercoolers though wont compound the boost.
Ok I see the exhaust dumb from Turbo a feeds into Turbo B, but the outlets that cough out mighty go fast wind aren't connected in any way, that is where I'm confused.
neongreen
10-24-2008, 05:02 PM
Uhh, Jess, i think you overlooked something. You dont multiply or add PSI to get the final pressure. You multiply the pressure ratios.
20psi = (20psi+14.7psi)/(14.7psi) = 2.36 PR
2.36 PR x 2.36 PR = 5.57 PR
5.57-1 = Relative PR = 4.57
4.57 PR = 67psi
Watch out, or you'll get more than you bargained for.
nagelandy55
10-24-2008, 05:39 PM
Thats good to know neongreen!
Jesshwarren
10-24-2008, 06:12 PM
Hows the exhaust exiting out of the second turbo? Gonna go through the firewall?
I got a lil over 3 inches of space for the DP. It looks tight in the pic but there is plenty of room.
Jesshwarren
10-24-2008, 06:28 PM
Uhh, Jess, i think you overlooked something. You dont multiply or add PSI to get the final pressure. You multiply the pressure ratios.
20psi = (20psi+14.7psi)/(14.7psi) = 2.36 PR
2.36 PR x 2.36 PR = 5.57 PR
5.57-1 = Relative PR = 4.57
4.57 PR = 67psi
Watch out, or you'll get more than you bargained for.
I know exactly what you are saying. i should have explained a little better.
To start off I am going to run a hy35 internal ported gate. Actuator I will have set to open at 15PSI. There will be a external gate between the turbos it will be set to open at 30PSI. Once 30 PSI is reached both WG's will be open there is no way boost can rocket above what the secondary WG is set at.
The benefit of this set up will be, quick spool with the top end punch of a large turbo. Low exhaust drive PSI to boost ratio. The compressors will be operating in there maximum efficiency range.
neongreen
10-24-2008, 07:53 PM
ahh okay.
but isn't 30 psi within the efficiency range of an hy35? wouldn't you want to do something like a large t3 combo and an hx40 with 40 psi or so? at that point, head studs, o-rings and prolly a copper gasket would be in order.
duuuuude... whoaa...
Jesshwarren
10-24-2008, 09:33 PM
ahh okay.
but isn't 30 psi within the efficiency range of an hy35? wouldn't you want to do something like a large t3 combo and an hx40 with 40 psi or so? at that point, head studs, o-rings and prolly a copper gasket would be in order.
duuuuude... whoaa...
Yea 40+ PSI is the goal. I'll start out light.
Ok I see the exhaust dumb from Turbo a feeds into Turbo B, but the outlets that cough out mighty go fast wind aren't connected in any way, that is where I'm confused.
Well, that's a good question for Jess to answer.
Maybe its still just mockup. But, I was under the impression that Turbo A's outlet feeds Turbo B's inlet. The pressures are then compounded and exit Turbo B's outlet and on to the intercooler. Setting the exhaust's in series I think just makes sure that both turbo's are using 100% of the exhaust energy rather than splitting it 50/50 if they were parallel.
Jesshwarren
10-25-2008, 10:28 AM
Well, that's a good question for Jess to answer.
Maybe its still just mockup. But, I was under the impression that Turbo A's outlet feeds Turbo B's inlet. The pressures are then compounded and exit Turbo B's outlet and on to the intercooler. Setting the exhaust's in series I think just makes sure that both turbo's are using 100% of the exhaust energy rather than splitting it 50/50 if they were parallel.
Right on, That is how compound turbos work. Turbo A makes X amount off boost feeding it into turbo B, turbo be compresses it yet some more and from there it goes to the IC.
Like this
http://www.cycloneinjapan.com/upload/files/43/twinturbo_large.jpg
BTW I went and bought all I need for this project so I should have it up and running in a couple weeks.
AJ_Fritz
10-25-2008, 12:39 PM
you guys are making an already bad headache worse.
ok the first turbo inline is the small one or the big one? if its the small one your going to need a rather big wastegate to divert enough energy around it when it spools to get the second larger turbo to light.
ok my head hurts. i am going to go lay down now.
nagelandy55
10-25-2008, 01:16 PM
you guys are making an already bad headache worse.
ok the first turbo inline is the small one or the big one? if its the small one your going to need a rather big wastegate to divert enough energy around it when it spools to get the second larger turbo to light.
ok my head hurts. i am going to go lay down now.
Ya thats what i was thinking too, you'll need a huge wastegate.
Redneck86
10-25-2008, 02:06 PM
Cant say I've ever heard of anyone doing this to a 2.3 before. Should be a hell of an animal if it stays together it works right.
My question is will the 2.3 be able to flow enough to keep the second turbo happy? Seems like it might take a second for the 2nd turbo get up to speed.
fordnut71
10-25-2008, 03:50 PM
thats the idea of a compound turbo system. smaller 1 into a bigger 1. it builds boost down low with the 1st turbo an it will start running the 2nd up to speed. once the 1st turbo is out of steam the 2nd it there waiting to go with boost.giving it the top end power.
Redneck86
10-25-2008, 03:54 PM
Ahh I see. I was thinking too hard and overlooking a few things:conf45:
Jesshwarren
10-25-2008, 11:20 PM
Got the WG's added today. Adam if you wondered I am doing some port work on the 1st turbo so the WG will flow more efficiently.
I should have the twin turbo's running on the street next weekend.
http://rangersrevenge.com/cgi/imagehosting/14903e053e965d.jpg
Hmm. I can't say I've ever tried running the wastegate the way you have it... so I wont say I'm 100% correct in this statement. However, that style wastegate is designed to opperate 180* from the orientation you have it set up. The valve is assisted by the exhaust pressure to open... so the given spring rate may not open at the desired pressure. With my TiAl valve, it seems that with the boost reference line disconnected, the spring will open around 2x the rating. (i.e. a .5 bar spring would open at 1 bar.)
Like I said, I've never tried it this way... but I would assume the valve would have a hard time staying open with so much exhaust pressure holding it back.
Otherwise... can't wait to hear the results! Awesome project. Put that T70 to work!
Jesshwarren
10-26-2008, 10:07 AM
Hmm. I can't say I've ever tried running the wastegate the way you have it... so I wont say I'm 100% correct in this statement. However, that style wastegate is designed to opperate 180* from the orientation you have it set up. The valve is assisted by the exhaust pressure to open... so the given spring rate may not open at the desired pressure. With my TiAl valve, it seems that with the boost reference line disconnected, the spring will open around 2x the rating. (i.e. a .5 bar spring would open at 1 bar.)
Like I said, I've never tried it this way... but I would assume the valve would have a hard time staying open with so much exhaust pressure holding it back.
Otherwise... can't wait to hear the results! Awesome project. Put that T70 to work!
I know what you are saying. I do not have enough room there to put it on the other way. If it comes down to it I will install a lighter spring.
I know what you are saying. I do not have enough room there to put it on the other way. If it comes down to it I will install a lighter spring.
I have a tial .25 bar I'll never use if you need it. I think that is the lightest spring they make. Shoot me a PM if you ever need it, save the $30 they want for a new one!
Jesshwarren
10-26-2008, 11:03 PM
I have a tial .25 bar I'll never use if you need it. I think that is the lightest spring they make. Shoot me a PM if you ever need it, save the $30 they want for a new one!
Thanx, I don't need it as of now. I looked at the way I have the WG on there I am going to move it and use the flange it is welded to now to run a external gate from the small turbo.
Jesshwarren
10-30-2008, 06:54 PM
WOW!! I got r done. I have a walk around video coming up with it running. I ran it on the road I can hit 30PSI at 2800RPM's when they spool, they SPOOL QUICK! I will install a turbo drive pressure gauge and do some testing and set them to the lowest drive PSI possible.
http://rangersrevenge.com/cgi/imagehosting/1490a36e3414d2.jpg
http://rangersrevenge.com/cgi/imagehosting/1490a36e31aba2.jpg
http://rangersrevenge.com/cgi/imagehosting/1490a36e2e07b3.jpg
nagelandy55
10-30-2008, 09:23 PM
Your nucking futs! That just looks KILLER and i can't wait to see how it does at the track!!!
AJ_Fritz
10-30-2008, 09:39 PM
wow! cant wait for the video! (toes tapping)
fordnut71
10-30-2008, 10:37 PM
that looks serious lol
turboranger_quest
10-30-2008, 11:22 PM
That's friggin' awesome!!!
xXAvengedRangerXx
10-31-2008, 05:54 AM
:rockwoot: holy shiz that is freakin insane :shocked: cant wait to see some vids of that run. itll be like :didimiss:
Redneck86
10-31-2008, 08:44 AM
*picks jaw up from floor* Wow, thats just nutz! There must be something in the water over there.
Jesshwarren
11-02-2008, 10:38 AM
video, Clutch slips.
http://www.rangersrevenge.com/videos/ttranger.wmv
Redneck86
11-02-2008, 12:22 PM
:drool5: Synchronized whistling lol
Absolutly awesome!
nagelandy55
11-02-2008, 04:44 PM
Sounds pretty unique, when do you expect to get your PP?
flyin
11-03-2008, 12:17 AM
Wow.
AJ_Fritz
11-03-2008, 11:48 AM
Wow.
+1 and another WOW!
xr4outcast
11-03-2008, 04:52 PM
Really causing some buzz over at Merkur Sport. I was going to post your video but I cant view it with my MAC. Are you going to post it on Youtube?
Jesshwarren
11-03-2008, 11:09 PM
Really causing some buzz over at Merkur Sport. I was going to post your video but I cant view it with my MAC. Are you going to post it on Youtube?
I'll try to get it on there soon.
PrerunningRanger
11-04-2008, 06:57 AM
Man that thing is slow.... you see in the video how it just jumps from 70 to 80? man.... slow, no balls.... lol J/K it looks purdy and prolly a beast.. lol
AJ_Fritz
11-04-2008, 11:47 AM
i just love the fact that it overwhelms the clutch almost instantly. not after a gear change but when its firmly engaged!
muddpawz
11-04-2008, 01:31 PM
i agree! how much boost are you set at in the vid? poor little clutch bet your dying to know what it'll do with the new pp!!! noticed any flaws with the set up yet? or changes you'll maybe wana make before too long? Looks great under the hood!!
Jesshwarren
11-04-2008, 05:56 PM
i agree! how much boost are you set at in the vid? poor little clutch bet your dying to know what it'll do with the new pp!!! noticed any flaws with the set up yet? or changes you'll maybe wana make before too long? Looks great under the hood!!
The clutch is a 4 puck ceramic should hold 400HP according to pyropete. I am running 30 PSI in the video.
The system is working very well, I think the second turbo needs a larger housing.
I tested this out last sat at Thompson raceway in Ohio. I found out I need at least 3/4 tank of fuel and just over a 1/4 tank of fuel wo a fuel cell I was asking for a fuel cut out before the 60' line it did a nose dive lost it's boost then came back to life I grabbed 2nd gear it did it again :mad2: once in 3rd it hung in there very well, with a slow 8th mi at only 88MPH it pulled off the 2nd half of the track like a beast trapping at 111+ MPH with a lousy 13.4 E/T.
BTW the clutch is not slipping once I get over 4000RPM's and on the track I usually am over 4000RPM's the entire run.
muddpawz
11-04-2008, 06:13 PM
thats wild. youll get it all worked out soon enough!! Outa do darn good when the pp arrives!! keep it up we're all anticipating some good numbers from it when its all done!!!
what turbo's are those and You crazy
LIKE A FOX!
ok dumb question trying to wrap my head around this, the bigger turbo outlet (where boost comes out) goes to the smaller turbos inlet (normally where the air cleaner would be?) and it pulls the air across the fins of the bigger and later pushes it across the fins of the smaller?
*EDIT*
Ok I went and read on this, what about turbo 1 blowing hot air when it hits it plays out, or does turbo 2 (big one) kinda cool the smaller one by blowing a bunch of air through it?
muddpawz
11-06-2008, 12:49 PM
soul, through air filter, into turbo 1, out of turbo 1, into turbo 2, through intercooler, into motor...and all over again!!!
Ranger4banger97
11-06-2008, 05:02 PM
jesssssssssssuuuuuuuuuussssssssssss chriiiiiiiiisssssssssttt hahaha
AJ_Fritz
11-07-2008, 01:23 PM
something most don't understand about compound setups. neither turbo is pushing its max flow rating through the compressor. you have to really think about it for a second.
the big turbo is feeding the smaller turbo. its increasing the density of the air. forget about pressures.... pressure is a side effect. the big turbo is compressing the air to say 1 bar. thats twice the density of the air that is coming into the turbo. the smaller turbo is taking that air and compressing it even further. its compressing a denser charge (the air has more weight) so it doesn't take that much centrifugal force (lower compressor speeds) to compress it to is final density.
both turbos are sharing the load so neither is working outside of its efficiency. actually both are working where they are the the most efficient. resulting in an extremely fast spool that goes almost instantly to full boost.
Elusive
11-19-2008, 12:14 PM
Man, this twin setup is extremely intriguing... and f**kin' killer to say the least!
diesels use a smaller 1st to spool up a huge 2nd turbo. easily boosting up to 80-90psi. if you wanted to you could remote the 2nd turbo under the passenger floorboard,and run exhaust strait back from there. Ive seen a lifted 4x4 ranger with his under the cab, looked nice, and out of the way, keep under hood temps a tad cooler as well... just a thought. hope the heads studded, o-ringed wouldnt hurt either. 5.9 cummins pop heads at 45psi... good luck!
check this link out if you havent seen it
before..http://www.therangerstation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8000&highlight=remote+turbo
This is my old truck. Sold it this summer. Remote's have their place, but this isn't the place for it. Under-hood inline's like that is way cooler! :=)
muddpawz
11-19-2008, 01:19 PM
ha!! nice to put a pic to your truck!! yeah i thought your 1st was a prety sweet setup!!
AJ_Fritz
11-19-2008, 05:26 PM
elusive where did you get the return pump for the turbo?
working on a remote turbo setup on an early 7.3 powerstroke and need a pump bad?
Elusive
11-19-2008, 06:09 PM
It's actually a ag-style fluid pump, like a weed spray pump! I had seen it on numerous remote app's on Cav's and Miata's and whatnot, and I also had really good luck with it. It's a Shur-flo pump... I don't have the part no. anymore but I bought it from a place called PumpMasters I believe. People gave me **** for it but I put down over 10,000 miles on it without a problem. Definitely run an oil cooler before it though.
Jess any updates? I need to feed my addiction for the insane.
Jesshwarren
12-19-2008, 03:19 PM
I blew the HG ranger is in the garage. I am away working should be back home next week.
lol CRAP. Was it at least fun when it went?
Jesshwarren
12-19-2008, 08:32 PM
lol CRAP. Was it at least fun when it went?
:hehe: yea
bruiser
12-24-2008, 12:38 AM
OMFG THAT IS JUST FREAKING INSANE I SEE YOU TOOK THE IDEA OF FORDS NEW 6.4 TWIN TURBO DIESEL AND APLLIED IT TO THE RANGER PRETTY SWEET I WANNA SEE A GOOD TRACK RUN sorry about the caps but its just AWESOME!!!!!!!! lol any more vids or anything??
OMFG THAT IS JUST FREAKING INSANE I SEE YOU TOOK THE IDEA OF FORDS NEW 6.4 TWIN TURBO DIESEL AND APLLIED IT TO THE RANGER PRETTY SWEET I WANNA SEE A GOOD TRACK RUN sorry about the caps but its just AWESOME!!!!!!!! lol any more vids or anything??
Well, maybe Ford's new setup inspired Jess, but it's far from Fords idea to do a turbo setup that way.
Ok just been thinking a little and now I have a ?. If you had a turbo compress the air and feed into a Supercharge would you get the same effect as this?
fordnut71
12-26-2008, 03:30 PM
kinda really depends on the supercharger. if your talking about a roots type blower. then the supercharger would work down in low rpms an then the turbos would feed up the top end.
reminds me of a chevy c10 that use to street race here about 10 years ago.that had a 496 with a twin t04 turbos feeding a 14/71 blower with a fogger system an c16 race fuel.
Jesshwarren
12-26-2008, 08:20 PM
Yea I heard of this on GTP's
4bangeranger
12-27-2008, 04:34 AM
sweet man
freddie
01-12-2009, 10:15 AM
Jess... keep that engine together. I want to come out and take a ride in it here in March or something maybe? Maybe for once there will be dry roads ;)
birdmanslopy
06-24-2009, 02:23 PM
bringing up a thread of the past, being i just viewed the youtube video..
what happened to this project?
AJ_Fritz
06-24-2009, 04:29 PM
still on going. race season is here and then pulling season.... cant put the cart before the whores lol
turboparton
06-24-2009, 04:56 PM
One of the mustang rags has a project (Hellion?) where they added twins to a supercharged cobra. Pumping out over 1K hp.
birdmanslopy
06-24-2009, 05:21 PM
whats holding the second turbo up? just a lil mount off the fenderwell??
ri06667
09-16-2009, 12:23 PM
I blew the HG ranger is in the garage. I am away working should be back home next week.
Was this using a 1035 gasket?
Could this be expected to hold up with a 1035 and some arp or felpro parts at 30psi?
Mr moose
09-23-2009, 07:11 PM
Ok jess I'm curious if you put the smaller AFTER the bigger turbo would you then not have to worry about the waste gate and such on the smaller not allowing the bigger to flow freely? Then waste gate in between the two so the little one doesn't restrict the max flow of the larger in higher rpms. I'm runnig a t76 with nos and I might use my old holset to reduce lag:)
Jesshwarren
10-13-2009, 10:39 PM
Ok jess I'm curious if you put the smaller AFTER the bigger turbo would you then not have to worry about the waste gate and such on the smaller not allowing the bigger to flow freely? Then waste gate in between the two so the little one doesn't restrict the max flow of the larger in higher rpms. I'm runnig a t76 with nos and I might use my old holset to reduce lag:)
I put the smaller turbo before the big one.
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