dizzy to coil pack?

[jake149]

I'm building up a 87 Turbo coupe motor and was wondering if there was a way to change it over to the coil packs instead of using the dizzy. Do I need to use a different computer other than the Turbo coupes,like the ranger? Or do I need the 8 plug head?

Any help would be appreciated,thanks.

[AJ_Fritz]

move to appropriate forum.

[Ron83ranger]

no, you can keep the turbo ecu and 4 plug head. you need the whole setup under the hood. the coil packs(just one but grab both), wiring, ignition module(big plastic TFI attached to the intake manifold), the crank hub and pulley, crank sensor, and possibly the front crank seal retainer. although im not 100% positive you really need that(the seal retainer) because they look similar. the difference may be in the shape where the crank sensor is located.

i have gathered all these parts to convert mine over. although now that i have everything, i have no problems with my distributor and any misfiring anymore, of course.

there is a write up on how to do the conversion and also a template floating around of where to drill the 2 locating holes for the crank sensor. here is the write up.

http://www.rothfam.com/svo/reference/DIS.htm

[jake149]

Thanks a lot man. i figured while I'm building now ill swap everything.

[AirBender]

just realize..when you go to this setup and remove the dizzy.... if the oil pump drive gear ever shears the ecu does not know it and it will keep running until the engine seizes from oil starvation......

[jareeb]

Junkyard motor swap could fix that

[oldcarfart]

To miss the #1 bearing is there a maximum depth to drill to or is there anouther concern?

[jake149]

just realize..when you go to this setup and remove the dizzy.... if the oil pump drive gear ever shears the ecu does not know it and it will keep running until the engine seizes from oil starvation......


His made me second guess myself if its worth it,but I'm gonna somehow create a sensor to tell me if it shears.I'll use the old distributor and figure out a sensor to work.

[boost23]

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/11205/10002/-1 You could use this to cut the ignition if you ever lose oil pressure.

[Ron83ranger]

or make sure the factory oil light works or get a gauge.

[jake149]

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/11205/10002/-1 You could use this to cut the ignition if you ever lose oil pressure.

Think it'll work for oil?

[KhanTyranitar]

You do realize that running a distributor just to warn you the shear pin has failed is stupid. First off, what are the odds it will happen, and secondly, what makes you think that anything that would cause the pin to shear would not cause the engine to stop or at least make a terrible noise. On my dad's 2000 Dodge Dakota 3.9L V6, the oil pump failed, the pin sheared, yet the truck continued to run, poorly. But in this case, the pump failed first.

I don't see 2.3L motors with coil packs kicking the bucket, besides, if you run the EDIS system, chances are the computer will still read of the distributor to fire the injectors. Loose your distributor, your injectors should shut of, engine stops before damage is done.

[FastR]

You do realize that running a distributor just to warn you the shear pin has failed is stupid. First off, what are the odds it will happen, and secondly, what makes you think that anything that would cause the pin to shear would not cause the engine to stop or at least make a terrible noise. On my dad's 2000 Dodge Dakota 3.9L V6, the oil pump failed, the pin sheared, yet the truck continued to run, poorly. But in this case, the pump failed first.

I don't see 2.3L motors with coil packs kicking the bucket, besides, if you run the EDIS system, chances are the computer will still read of the distributor to fire the injectors. Loose your distributor, your injectors should shut of, engine stops before damage is done.

This really makes you a smart guy!!!! I WISH I COULD BE THAT SMART COUGH COUGH!!!! PLEASE SHOW YOUR IGNORANCE ELSEWHERE STICK TO THE TOPIC. THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO SHOW YOUR LACK OF INTELLIGENCE! I CAN'T LEARN ANYTHING WITH YOU SHOWING US YOUR LACK OF SMARTS! AND IF YOU FEEL I SHOULD BE BANNED FOR THIS COMMENT FEEL FREE TO DO SO. I CAME FROM A PLACE LOADED WITH SMART PEOPLE JUST LIKE THIS ONE. AND NOW ITS A DYING FORUM!

[jfive]

was gonna speak up earlier, but most should get a manual oil pressure gauge, and simply check it. If you loose oil pressure, cause your low on oil, or pump isn't working, then you will see it on the gauge. DIS conversion has been done with success, and I wouldn't worry about it if you feel crafty enough to do so. Caroth came up with some neat tricks to doing this, but he is a crafty person himself, so I am sure it was no big deal for him. I would decide if its worth it or not. Appears from reading a dyno event that modern performance put on year back, that the x4ti stock ignition made more power than the aftermarket accell setup. Not a suprise to me as I think that accell is crap, but many use to run them in the 80s and 90s as they sold alot of ignition garbage. Procomp I believe is making an aftermarket 2.3 distributor, and I think you can still find the msd one out there. I think airbender was just trying to say that you don't need DIS really, and you can have good results sticking with the factory setup.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Ford-23-Billet-Distributor,5052.html?parentDisplayId=1685 http://www.speedwaymotors.com/MSD-23-Ford-Billet-Distributor,676.html?parentDisplayId=5052

[FastR]

Using someone's else success in order to justiry using. DIS is in effect. Is arguing a moot point. You are saying it works but! Ford knew this! It works so great and was so perfect they stopped using it and designed a new engine with a different oil pump placement! Engines with a dizzy did not continue to run and self-destruct when the oil pump fails! I have used both designs and understand the pros and cons of both! Face the facts. Do you drive with eyes fixed on an oil pressure guage. I think not! I have a oil pressure guage and only occasionally glance at it. A guage or indicator is not a fail-safe! In the end you should use what ever you like. You have to deal with its success or failure!

[KhanTyranitar]

This really makes you a smart guy!!!! I WISH I COULD BE THAT SMART COUGH COUGH!!!! PLEASE SHOW YOUR IGNORANCE ELSEWHERE STICK TO THE TOPIC. THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO SHOW YOUR LACK OF INTELLIGENCE! I CAN'T LEARN ANYTHING WITH YOU SHOWING US YOUR LACK OF SMARTS! AND IF YOU FEEL I SHOULD BE BANNED FOR THIS COMMENT FEEL FREE TO DO SO. I CAME FROM A PLACE LOADED WITH SMART PEOPLE JUST LIKE THIS ONE. AND NOW ITS A DYING FORUM!

Look, I'm just saying that if you use that information alone to decide whether or not to run coil packs or a distributor. While it can always in theory happen, the pin in the distributor is not a likely failure point, often if it ever does shear, it is because the distributor seized, or the oil pump seized.

I just find it absolutely ludicrous that anyone who wants to get the most out of their vehicle will decide against using a DIS system simply because it doesn't use the PIP signal from a distributor but instead uses its own crank sensor. Every 2.3L Ford that uses the DIS system uses the crank signal (which the computer does not read directly) to to time the ignition system, and the DIS module sends a tach or diagnostic signal to the computer. The computer uses the cam sensor, which mounts in the distributor hole just like the distributor did, to time the injectors. The computer does not use the DIS signal to time the injectors.

So simple solution, leave your original distributor in place to run the injector timing and use the DIS system to run the coil packs. Alternatively, with some rewiring you could use a cam sensor from DIS equipped 2.3L in place of the distributor, to the same effect. If the pin shears because of a problem, the computer will loose the injector timing either way and the engine should stall.

In the case on my dad's Dakota, the oil pump actually failed, but did not entirely seize, but enough that it broke the pin. The gear turned a little and seized in a different orientation, which resulted in an off time ignition and injector timing, but the truck still ran. In theory, and in most cases, the truck should have died, but for whatever reason it didn't. I am less than impressed with Chryslers anyway.

If you really want to go the extra mile to make sure the engine dies in the event of the pin shearing, then go right ahead. I have complete wiring diagrams and schematics of 1985 - 1994 Rangers, Thunderbirds, etc. The injectors are timed on the PIP signal on distributor based applications, and off the cam signal (which is identical to a PIP signal) on DIS applications. The computer does NOT run the injectors off the tach signal. The computer will also shut off the fuel pump if it looses the PIP signal.

If you feel my statements were ignorant, that is your opinion, and you are entitled to your opinion. Before I purchased and started building my current 2.3L dual plug motor for a project, I knew I was going to need all custom wire harnesses, so I took the time and effort to obtain multiple wiring diagrams of the donor and recipient vehicles, and that I fully educated myself on how the DIS system works. If you feel this is ignorance, that is your opinion, nothing more.

On having an oil pressure gauge, no its not a bad thing to have either way. But unless you stare at it all the time, you might not notice an oil pressure drop until you hear the terrible clacking of engine parts not getting the proper pressure and lubrication. My dad's Dakota uses an electronic oil pressure sender (not a dummy switch), and that didn't stop engine damage from low oil pressure. You would occasionally hear a chime with a light flashing to check gauges, but by the time you would look, the pressure would return to normal. On my current project, I will be swapping in a oil pressure sending instead of an oil pressure switch. But I know that it is really only a relative comparison. Gauges are not 100% accurate, and how do you recognize a problem anyway?

Now for those of us who were actually paying attention in class, you do realize that any such switch may also make so that the truck won't start, as you don't have any oil pressure when it is static. Even though cranking the starter will give you oil pressure, the ignition will not start firing until after the pressure comes, up, which is more than enough time to flood the cylinders, which would make it hard to start, if it would start at all. The injector cutting via PIP signal is all the safety you need. Besides, the stock oil pressure switch is already just a switch, and if you wanted to use a switch, why not use one thats actually meant for your engine as opposed to some universal piece of junk thats not even intended to measure oil pressure.

[AirBender]

You do realize that running a distributor just to warn you the shear pin has failed is stupid

that comment is what started the rant...

only california equiped dis motors came with the cam sync.. all other dis motors came witha dummy plug or oil pump drive plug.... so... only california models will die if the oil drive gear or roll pin breaks... the rest will run until they seize....see the problem now? if you use the dizzy as some sort of ignition component, whatever the capacity of its use, you will avoid seizing the motor if the gear or pin breaks....my dizzy is used as a cam sync after slight modification and rewiring...
i personally have had 2 dizzy and aux gears crunch on a 2.3 and know first hand of a couple others..so yes it does happen.... as sam noted, ford saw the problem and redesigned the lima 2.5 to remedy that problem...

you just need to pick your words a little better and although you may have read some helpful info.... you are still lacking on other pertinent info.... youll get there....

[FastR]

[QUOTE=KhanTyranitar;52803]Look, I'm just saying that if you use that information alone to decide whether or not to run coil packs or a distributor. While it can always in theory happen, the pin in the distributor is not a likely failure point, often if it ever does shear, it is because the distributor seized, or the oil pump seized.

I just find it absolutely ludicrous that anyone who wants to get the most out of their vehicle will decide against using a DIS system simply because it doesn't use the PIP signal from a distributor but instead uses its own crank sensor. Every 2.3L Ford that uses the DIS system uses the crank signal (which the computer does not read directly) to to time the ignition system, and the DIS module sends a tach or diagnostic signal to the computer. The computer uses the cam sensor, which mounts in the distributor hole just like the distributor did, to time the injectors. The computer does not use the DIS signal to time the injectors.

So simple solution, leave your original distributor in place to run the injector timing and use the DIS system to run the coil packs. Alternatively, with some rewiring you could use a cam sensor from DIS equipped 2.3L in place of the distributor, to the same effect. If the pin shears because of a problem, the computer will loose the injector timing either way and the engine should stall.

In the case on my dad's Dakota, the oil pump actually failed, but did not entirely seize, but enough that it broke the pin. The gear turned a little and seized in a different orientation, which resulted in an off time ignition and injector timing, but the truck still ran. In theory, and in most cases, the truck should have died, but for whatever reason it didn't. I am less than impressed with Chryslers anyway.

If you really want to go the extra mile to make sure the engine dies in the event of the pin shearing, then go right ahead. I have complete wiring diagrams and schematics of 1985 - 1994 Rangers, Thunderbirds, etc. The injectors are timed on the PIP signal on distributor based applications, and off the cam signal (which is identical to a PIP signal) on DIS applications. The computer does NOT run the injectors off the tach signal. The computer will also shut off the fuel pump if it looses the PIP signal.

If you feel my statements were ignorant, that is your opinion, and you are entitled to your opinion. Before I purchased and started building my current 2.3L dual plug motor for a project, I knew I was going to need all custom wire harnesses, so I took the time and effort to obtain multiple wiring diagrams of the donor and recipient vehicles, and that I fully educated myself on how the DIS system works. If you feel this is ignorance, that is your opinion, nothing more.

On having an oil pressure gauge, no its not a bad thing to have either way. But unless you stare at it all the time, you might not notice an oil pressure drop until you hear the terrible clacking of engine parts not getting the proper pressure and lubrication. My dad's Dakota uses an electronic oil pressure sender (not a dummy switch), and that didn't stop engine damage from low oil pressure. You would occasionally hear a chime with a light flashing to check gauges, but by the time you would look, the pressure would return to normal. On my current project, I will be swapping in a oil pressure sending instead of an oil pressure switch. But I know that it is really only a relative comparison. Gauges are not 100% accurate, and how do you recognize a problem anyway?

Now for those of us who were actually paying attention in class, you do realize that any such switch may also make so that the truck won't start, as you don't have any oil pressure when it is static. Even though cranking the starter will give you oil pressure, the ignition will not start firing until after the pressure comes, up, which is more than enough time to flood the cylinders, which would make it hard to start, if it would start at all. The injector cutting via PIP signal is all the safety you need. Besides, the stock oil pressure switch is already just a switch, and if you wanted to use a switch, why not use one thats actually meant for your engine as opposed to some universal piece of junk thats not even intended to measure oil pressure.[/QUOTE

For those who did pay attention in class know that the the vehicles that came with such a switch bypassed it under starting conditions. You still don't get it you are proving me right. So keep up the good work!

[K G]

When I srated off road racing I was told to use a gauge (oil, temp volt, ect) to see the reading. And a light for when it goes into a danger area.
Why use both? If racing offroad, 1/4 mile, ect, think of the last time you did it, and how many times you looked at the gauges. Most dont look unless something is wrong. I have seen the warning lights hooked to a horn and marker lights on dash, just incase.
Some OEM senders go off at 5 psi oil, but you can change that for a hobbs swithch of your choice.
.02
KG

[KhanTyranitar]

You do realize that running a distributor just to warn you the shear pin has failed is stupid

that comment is what started the rant...

only california equiped dis motors came with the cam sync.. all other dis motors came witha dummy plug or oil pump drive plug.... so... only california models will die if the oil drive gear or roll pin breaks... the rest will run until they seize....see the problem now? if you use the dizzy as some sort of ignition component, whatever the capacity of its use, you will avoid seizing the motor if the gear or pin breaks....my dizzy is used as a cam sync after slight modification and rewiring...
i personally have had 2 dizzy and aux gears crunch on a 2.3 and know first hand of a couple others..so yes it does happen.... as sam noted, ford saw the problem and redesigned the lima 2.5 to remedy that problem...

you just need to pick your words a little better and although you may have read some helpful info.... you are still lacking on other pertinent info.... youll get there....

Ok, so if only the CA came with the cam sync, then how come you don't see seized 2.3L DIS engines all over the place. But I am in favor of redundant systems, and I will concede that 'stupid' was definitely the wrong word for me to use. For that, please accept my apology.

If you want to use a shutoff switch to kill the engine if oil pressure is lost that, is fine. The best switch to use would be a stock Ford oil pressure switch, it cuts off if the oil pressure drops below about 7 psi. This is unlikely to ever happen under normal conditions, except at startup or if the oil pump fails or the shaft breaks. But in my opinion and experience, such failures are probably pretty rare so long as proper maintenance is performed. I basically think its overkill.

So its like getting prepared for a zombie invasion or a nuclear holocaust, yes you can prepare for such things, but you probably have limited budget and time, why not focus on issues that really matter or install a fuel pressure gauge. I'm sure you have lots of other issues to address.

[AirBender]

So its like getting prepared for a zombie invasion or a nuclear holocaust, yes you can prepare for such things, but you probably have limited budget and time, why not focus on issues that really matter or install a fuel pressure gauge. I'm sure you have lots of other issues to address.

you sure like to assume alot of unknowns...to me it looks like you look at most on these boards as if they are all idiots... not true and not a good way to gain allies....i have quite a bit of money in my engine alone... i like knowing after experiencing dizzy and aux gear failure that i have a solution in place for a few bucks and a couple hours that will save my engine from becoming an anchor..

you do what you like and be happy with it and ill do the same.....

BUT!!!!! dont go on here giving bad or mis-information as that can be put to an abrupt halt....

[Ron83ranger]

as for the oil switch for an engine kill and starting, sam is right, Ford actually used this exact system on its vehicles during the 80's. specifically on carb'ed engines that used electric fuel pumps. there had to be oil pressure for the switch to activate letting the pumps come on, and had a starting bypass.

i had to diagnose a problem on my buddy's 84 F350 dually stakebody with a carb'ed 460 that had 2 gas tanks and electric fuel pumps. it came into a no start situation with it being the oil switch causing a no start, no prime problem. we just bypassed it temporarily with a key on fuel pump switch as he needed it to run to be moved. his truck had the idiot light plus that switch.

the switch is a 2 wire one as opposed to the single wire for the oil sender. this switch could be an option for someone wanting to do so with the DIS swap since it is part of the fuel pump circuit.